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dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

Up until now I did not know what transpired  but I have already  made a public inquiry addressing the most egregious accusation of altering the words of the post. 

 I know the admin in question after you posted the events of the conversation. He is a good guy and also a friend but objectively it needs to be dealt with. 

 One thing I will say which I did not want to bring up because some may take offense is that  the way we do things on Spyderchat was always uniquely American and MR2ROC is uniquely British.  Its just a fact that there are cultural norms that are different even though English is a common language. 

MR2ROC is also a very tightly nit  community that has always been different than Syderchat. In fact I have dealt with other UK sites for GBs and I have run into issues which I was unaware which I thought was just a normal way of doing business.  This is not just a UK thing as I have conducted GB for other English speaking countries and its just different every time and I have to adjust to it to make my sales work. 

The same thing can go the other way when they come to our site and realize its not what they are use to. It doesn't mean we cant get a long, its just different and it takes time to adjust. Sometimes I will get carried away and post like I do on Spyderchat with hardline views and they will go silent because it is interpreted as being a bit crass for them. Other times they may bring up something to me in a PM and I will get annoyed because I think they are not being direct with me.

 Still there is no excuse for altering a persons words to say something else as a misrepresentation of them.  

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Topic starter Posted : June 24, 2019 1:56 pm
phats
(@phats)
Estimable Member

My goal isn't to try to get them to restore my post , the cats outta the bag . I just wanted everyone to know that ROC censors and it's wrong . I'm sure Patrick (ROC) is a fine human being but he / they shouldn't be censoring and deleting post because they don't like it .  It's too late to fix it ..... the damage is done .

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Posted : June 24, 2019 2:23 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator
Posted by: phats

My goal isn't to try to get them to restore my post , the cats outta the bag . I just wanted everyone to know that ROC censors and it's wrong . I'm sure Patrick (ROC) is a fine human being but he / they shouldn't be censoring and deleting post because they don't like it .  It's too late to fix it ..... the damage is done .

Randy I completely understand that and its too late for that. I already made an inquiry  that gets to the point to see if its board thing or just one persons action that doesn't represent the sprit of the board.  I completely agree with you. I just want it dealt with.  

 

 

 

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Topic starter Posted : June 24, 2019 2:26 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

Here is their response.

The forum's stance is that we will never change the post in such a way that the meaning is changed. We may remove or censor offensive words.
Or even remove lines that are offensive or obviously obtuse.

Specific issues are dealt with via PM.
If there is any remaining issue with any moderation activity, please drop a PM to me and we'll discuss it.
If I feel it requires input from the rest of the Committee, I will do so and return via PM with a resolution or result.
If on the back of that, communication is required to the wider audience, we will do so via our Club Announcements area.

So the route to feedback is PM via Committee (specifically me as Moderator Manager).

On the back of this, I have realised I forgot to re-post the Forum Rules when we upgraded. I will do so soon!

 

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Topic starter Posted : June 24, 2019 2:42 pm
phats
(@phats)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Dev
Posted by: phats

My goal isn't to try to get them to restore my post , the cats outta the bag . I just wanted everyone to know that ROC censors and it's wrong . I'm sure Patrick (ROC) is a fine human being but he / they shouldn't be censoring and deleting post because they don't like it .  It's too late to fix it ..... the damage is done .

Randy I completely understand that and its too late for that. I already made an inquiry  that gets to the point to see if its board thing or just one persons action that doesn't represent the sprit of the board.  I completely agree with you. I just want it dealt with.  

 

 

 

Sad they want to take your post over there private !!  Thought it was funny Carolyn was the first to give a thumbs up . 

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Posted : June 24, 2019 2:43 pm
phats
(@phats)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Dev

Here is their response.

The forum's stance is that we will never change the post in such a way that the meaning is changed. We may remove or censor offensive words.
Or even remove lines that are offensive or obviously obtuse.

Specific issues are dealt with via PM.
If there is any remaining issue with any moderation activity, please drop a PM to me and we'll discuss it.
If I feel it requires input from the rest of the Committee, I will do so and return via PM with a resolution or result.
If on the back of that, communication is required to the wider audience, we will do so via our Club Announcements area.

So the route to feedback is PM via Committee (specifically me as Moderator Manager).

On the back of this, I have realised I forgot to re-post the Forum Rules when we upgraded. I will do so soon!

 

I think you have your answer !!  

Oh yeah the message was sent to :  « Sent to: BernieStewart@Borophattires on: June 21, 2019, 05:39 »   so they all knew about it .

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Posted : June 24, 2019 2:56 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

Ok so I want to be clearly objective as possible because I know both people involved. 

What it looks like from my end is clearly a difference of realities not exactly a difference of a point of view. I can only judge it based on my own cultural beliefs which is probably not objective in their reality.  

 The one thing we tend to forget is that America is the only country that has the concept of free speech and protected speech. Im no lawyer but from what I understand if you alter someones written words  even if its just one word, punctuation or miss quotation  even if the intent is to make it similar  it is still considered a major violation that is liable.  It can actually change the whole meaning of how your persona, tone and inflection is interpreted and that should be protected no matter how offensive because its someone else's subjectivity in determining meaning.  How we deal with it on most US forums  it is removing it entirety if it violates the rules and or banning the member but never changing the words.    

 How they deal with it is either changing or removing the words to tone it down.

 

 

 

 

 

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Topic starter Posted : June 24, 2019 3:06 pm
phats
(@phats)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Dev

Ok so I want to be clearly objective as possible because I know both people involved. 

What it looks like from my end is clearly a difference of realities not exactly a difference of a point of view. I can only judge it based on my own cultural beliefs which is probably not objective in their reality.  

 The one thing we tend to forget is that America is the only country that has the concept of free speech and protected speech. Im no lawyer but from what I understand if you alter someones written words  even if its just one word, punctuation or miss quotation  even if the intent is to make it similar  it is still considered a major violation that is liable.  It can actually change the whole meaning of how your persona, tone and inflection is interpreted and that should be protected no matter how offensive because its someone else's subjectivity in determining meaning.  How we deal with it on most US forums  it is removing it entirety if it violates the rules and or banning the member but never changing the words.    

 How they deal with it is either changing or removing the words to tone it down.

 

 

 

 

 

Dev I can clearly see you are trying to wiggle and that is your right , this is America .

Ask Patrick what happened to the rest of this sentence " I'll post a pic of my brace I'm working on . "  that's post #39 he edited the rest of the sentence . The mention in message he sent "mere Mortal " was in it .

Ask about Patrick flat out saying I called her brace CRAP .  I in no way shape or form did I say that . I called him out on that and that is when he apologized for doing so , but that part is deleted now .  

I think a lot of guys know me well enough that I don't use foul language , that seems to be their biggest excuse to censorship .... in my opinion .

I'm done with this ..... too much drama .

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Posted : June 24, 2019 3:45 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

 I going to be completely upfront with you and say that yes I don't like the fact that your words were altered. I cant change what has been done or resolve a situation like this amicably.  You are right Im trying to find some wiggle room so this can be resolved because despite our differences we have much  to share and they have saved Spyderchat more than once.  

What I can tell you is that they are honest with their view of what is acceptable to them even if it is a bit troubling for us. There might have been some wrong in the forum of assumptions on Patricks part where an  apology was given.  

 Furthermore Patrick is willing to work towards a solution which works for me because I think he understands our rigid point of view and is willing to be accommodating with changing how things are done over there moving forward.  I know its not much after what has been done but he is making an initiative  to fix this situation in some way because they are also not happy about the situation either. Thats worth something to me if they are willing to try rather then turn their noses upwards at us and much better then the nasty PM I got from an Admin on Syderchat that berated me when I made a fool of him for altering someones posts. 

In the future, I think I can avoid future conflict by removing the post in its entirety (which goes into a recycling bin) , PMing the member to request a rewording, with my reasoning, and then reinstating it with the agreed rewording.

This gives the author an opportunity to explain what they meant, as in this case, a lot was lost in "translation" and loss of intonation via text. 

This applies not only to US members. This approach is probably a sensible one across the board, as people take censorship quite seriously. 

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Topic starter Posted : June 24, 2019 5:17 pm
phats
(@phats)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Dev

 I going to be completely upfront with you and say that yes I don't like the fact that your words were altered. I cant change what has been done or resolve a situation like this amacably.  You are right Im trying to find some wiggle room so this can be resolved because despite our differences we have much  to share and they have saved Spyderchat more than once.  

What I can tell you is that they are honest with their view of what is acceptable to them even if it is a bit troubling for us. There might have been some wrong in the forum of assumptions on Patricks part where an  apology was given.  

 Furthermore Patrick is willing to work towards a solution which works for me because I think he understands our rigid point of view and is willing to be accommodating with changing how things are done over there moving forward.  I know its not much after what has been done but he is making an initiative  to fix this situation in some way because they are also not happy about the situation either. Thats worth something to me if they are willing to try rather then turn their noses upwards at us and much better then the nasty PM I got from an Admin on Syderchat that berated me when I made a fool of him for altering someones posts. 

In the future, I think I can avoid future conflict by removing the post in its entirety (which goes into a recycling bin) , PMing the member to request a rewording, with my reasoning, and then reinstating it with the agreed rewording.

This gives the author an opportunity to explain what they meant, as in this case, a lot was lost in "translation" and loss of intonation via text. 

This applies not only to US members. This approach is probably a sensible one across the board, as people take censorship quite seriously. 

WoW !!! you're ok with the new solution . I do understand when you find out your friends are involved in censorship that would be a hard pill to swallow but still .

lets see we'll delete the whole post, give them a chance to conform to what we want them to say , then noncompliance will result in deletion . 

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Posted : June 24, 2019 7:57 pm
neomr2 liked
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

Its their rules and its how they operate. I have known from the beginning that migrating everyone over there would be a major concern  and realized that it will not work in the long run and  that is why I only wanted an area to regroup to build a forum of our own because we could not coexist precisely because of a situation like this. We have very different personalties and mannerisms  that don't jive with them and some of them are immovable.  They are happy with what works for them. 

I have been going to that forum for almost 15 years and every time I am there I consider myself as a traveler that has to get along in someones else land and abide   by their rules and the tone of the board.  Its way different then Spyderchat and others that visit know it and you are not the first to be taken back by this.  Im not particularly fond of how they moderate strong opinions or cultural misunderstandings  but at the same time its not home base for me but I can get along while im there, make  friends and sell.  Altering someones words is the line I have with using that site but as far as realizing that that board is not the place to be if I want to let up and be in my own element as I was on Spyderchat I just visit, learn and enjoy in my own way that works but im not there for long, just visiting.  Its exactly the way it is for me going forward with Syderchat. Im still going to visit just not going to stay or call it home base. 

 If this board doesn't want to use the section of the board I created for us for the survival of our board I have no problem with that until we can find an alternative but this is at present  our only life line and they are willing to help us.  The regrouping area is mainly to make sure we can coordinate a way back with updates to the status of the downed forum, not a place to post unless you want to.  We did this before back in the day when Spyderchat went down for over two weeks where they gave us our own thread. Many at the time only stayed on that thread.  

 

 

 

 

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Topic starter Posted : June 24, 2019 8:41 pm
phats
(@phats)
Estimable Member

The culture card .... that's funny

This is the post that started it all , it's direct but not rude or vulgar , no foul language , what am I not seeing ?

 " "Slots" in a brace you're trying to prevent flex looks like a design flaw . I'd re-think that ."

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Posted : June 24, 2019 9:08 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator
Posted by: phats

The culture card .... that's funny

This is the post that started it all , it's direct but not rude or vulgar , no foul language , what am I not seeing ?

 " "Slots" in a brace you're trying to prevent flex looks like a design flaw . I'd re-think that ."

I don't know, Im not British. Some cultures can be over sophisticated how you say it in polite conversation and its even worse how it comes out in written form. 

 On the whole I see the situation like this. You went there as the new guy were Carolyn (lady Cap Weir) is someone they  consider a heavy hitter  who was making something for the guys there and was insulted on her cooking.  

 It isn't that far off when the actual Cap was insulted in a very benign way  by someone new and the board just went wild.  

 

shnazzle is the kind of guy that has a good heart that wears it on his sleeve and probably went too far because he has taken what you wrote as  an insult to a lady and  probably lost perspective. I can tell you that he feels terrible about the situation as we all are but thats that and its probably best not to post there and expect it to be like Spyderchat however they are stand up guys if you would like to sell your items as I have enjoyed a very good business relationship with them for a very long time.  

When Spydechat was around and some girl was insulted the board went nuts defending her honor. Sometimes things just get  blown out of proportion.

 

 

 

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Topic starter Posted : June 24, 2019 9:37 pm
NottaMiata
(@nottamiata)
Honorable Member

..

🐸, 2003, Electric Green Mica, not enough mods

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Posted : June 25, 2019 12:03 pm
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