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To wing, or not to wing... that is the question

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pwnzor
(@pwnzor)
Reputable Member

I recently completed a 5300 mile road trip, during which Trixie performed flawlessly.  She really does love the open road.

That being said, several lengthy stretches of this trip were fraught with horrific cross winds, sustained speeds of 30 mph and gusting to 50 - 60 mph in some places.  Trixie liked to have skipped sideways across an entire lane and end up in the rumble strip in some places.

 

My question is, would a wing on the rear and/or a splitter up front have helped in any way?  The car is already as low as I can make it without causing problems traversing parking lots, and in fact some speed bumps have to be avoided altogether.  

I'm very dubious about how wings look in general, but if it was 100% functional, I could look past my vanity and add one to the car.  

What sayeth the MR2-Spyder.com braintrust?

http://zero3nine.com/files/dospwn.gif

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Topic starter Posted : March 5, 2020 3:39 pm
LordTakuban
(@lordtakuban)
Member Admin

I'm not sure how well a rear wing or front splitter would help to deal with cross winds.  However, they may help to add a bit more down force to help keep you more firmly planted (provided you're going fast enough for them to do their job).

The truth is, I don't know for sure if there would be any benefit, but it seems like there might be at least some benefit to it based on the science that happens with the various aero pieces.

Get your Short Antennas, Decals, and all sorts of goodies at:
https://takubanmotorsports.com

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Posted : March 5, 2020 4:39 pm
pwnzor
(@pwnzor)
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Yeah, I know when the wind is flowing over the car from front to back, it's definitely a benefit.  But these cross winds were pretty wild.  

Some part of my brain says it would help, but some other part is arguing that it could make matters worse!  I figured I'd post up and see if anybody has real-world experience in high winds in a car that previously had no wing, and what effects they felt after installing one.

http://zero3nine.com/files/dospwn.gif

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Topic starter Posted : March 5, 2020 4:51 pm
neomr2
(@neomr2)
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I had a wing, took it off and drove the car without it, then added a duck tail spoiler, then took that off as well, and the car handles the same in all 3 configurations...

Mono Craft GT-300 with a few upgrades...

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Posted : March 5, 2020 6:17 pm
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member
Posted by: @pwnzor

I'm very dubious about how wings look in general, but if it was 100% functional, I could look past my vanity and add one to the car.  

What sayeth the MR2-Spyder.com braintrust?

I have been faffing with aero as it has such a huge effect on downforce/lift and turbulence/drag without adding significant weight. I live in the mountains and wind can be a ´bit´ of an issue. The local wind is called the ´levante´ and can blow for three days. 

To the generics:

At the front it is ´just´ about reducing lift. It improves highway speed stability and only improves gript at híghly illegal speeds.

At the rear it is both negatie lift and turbulence. Reducing the latter improves highway stability, the latter improves traction.

Concentrating on the rear; any form of lip behind the engine deck provides a shear ledge for the air thus reducing turbulence. For negative lift something larger abóve the rear is needed. 

I have a rubber lip and large slab combined. The effect is a very much more planted rear end. 

The front and rear work great together and with over 100 km/h sidewinds + stronger gusts passing a large lorry (wind coming from lorry side) at illegal speeds is a non-event; the car goes like an arrow. Logical as the lift reduction at the front is like an arrow head and the things at the rear the feathers.

The rear wing I have mounted has enough surfact to noticeably work from some 80 km/h. Now, how much it adds to cornering speed is a ??? but the positive effect of an improved planted feel at the back is 😍 

Bottom line:

I noticed the effect of ALL the aero mods and think them great value for hardly any money or weight.

 

 

 

 

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Posted : March 5, 2020 6:42 pm
Petrus
(@petrus)
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Posted by: @pwnzor
 
but some other part is arguing that it could make matters worse! 

The effect of the flow over the car is WAY greater than the extra pressure from the side as the extra side surface is small. NO WAY the matter gets worse. 

 

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Posted : March 5, 2020 6:53 pm
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member

Lastly the looks.

That is entirely subjective; some like the mother, some the daughter, some both.

I personally think the MR-S has a definite manga influence in the stying. Hence imo anything in that direction suits it. Also I think the rear ´misses´ something. Have a look at the MR-S in Initial-D. 

However you think it looks, it works and a good aero set up does wónders in side winds.

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Posted : March 5, 2020 7:01 pm
neomr2
(@neomr2)
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@Petrus

Your experience is totally different than mine and I had a high end adjustable performance wing. 

Plus the wing blocked my rear view mirror vision.  

In my opinion, the only way to get any significant down force from the wing, it needs to be high, wide, and frame/chassis mounted.  

Smaller body panel mounted wings are mainly for looks or the force they would generate would damage the sheet metal they are mounted to.

 

Mono Craft GT-300 with a few upgrades...

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Posted : March 5, 2020 9:38 pm
pwnzor
(@pwnzor)
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@neomr2 

I don't have a rear view mirror, so that's not an issue. 

Any wing I get would have to be frame mounted as I don't want to damage my body panels

 

 

http://zero3nine.com/files/dospwn.gif

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Topic starter Posted : March 5, 2020 9:54 pm
neomr2 liked
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

Some cross winds sure but on the whole why don’t I have any issues without a wing worth mentioning. Why is it that I have so much traction at high speeds that are beyond reasonable. I can do 80mph down a tight country road which should land me in jail but I never felt the car lift at those insane speeds to be aero limited when I’m nerve limited.  This is not to say I haven’t felt those forces in a minivan or have felt the limit restrictions with stock tires but aero never really came into question at all.   
 If there is some forces of instability some of you are feeling at higher speeds I would rule out other areas particularly suspension.   
  

 

 

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Posted : March 5, 2020 10:44 pm
Petrus
(@petrus)
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Posted by: @pwnzor

@neomr2 

I don't have a rear view mirror, so that's not an issue. 

Any wing I get would have to be frame mounted as I don't want to damage my body panels

 

 

No such mirror here either 😉

Forget frame mounted. That is only for very high forces and you need to put the mounts very close to the rear axle to avoid front lift leverage effect. I have it on the rear lid as fast forward as teh adjustment allows with the rear edge above the runner lip so flow under the wing is sped up as much as possible. Because the air over the tub tilts dównwards, the wing needs almost no angle of attack.

I copied the side plates in foam board to make all as light as possible. Still faffing to copy the aluminium struts in polymer.

..and about the effect, do the math yourself. Take the ´weight´ of air pressure at various speeds multiplied by the size of the wing. Now do keep in mind that the airfoil is extremely effective because it works on BÓTH sides in the same direction: It is low pressure under the wing, high pressure above, DOUBLING the effect. Adding the rubber lip speeds up the flow under the wind = optimising the negative lift.

 

I réally flog my little frog up and down mountain passes and the difference in rear traction is ... large.

As to stabilty in wind, my gfs are the best to give a verdict as they are clueless about the how/what and only notice the difference. Before I started, thus in OEM trim, they were not very comfy passing trucks with sidewind. Without me asking all three asked what I had done as it is now. They get the ´arrow´ parallel.

A last comment concerning effectiveness of aero; remember the ´mongos´? and what about the little flap behind the seats?! 

Bttom line: TIOLI and have fun anywhichway you prefer.

 

 

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Posted : March 6, 2020 4:34 am
Petrus
(@petrus)
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Posted by: @dev

Some cross winds sure but on the whole why don’t I have any issues without a wing worth mentioning. Why is it that I have so much traction at high speeds that are beyond reasonable. I can do 80mph down a tight country road which should land me in jail but I never felt the car lift at those insane speeds to be aero limited when I’m nerve limited.  This is not to say I haven’t felt those forces in a minivan or have felt the limit restrictions with stock tires but aero never really came into question at all.   
 If there is some forces of instability some of you are feeling at higher speeds I would rule out other areas particularly suspension.   
  

 

 

It´s all realtive Dev.

You acknowledge ´some cross winds sure´ so there ís grounds for an issue. Just increase cross wind and driving speeds.

´Beyond reasonable´ is as relative as the 80mph you mention as ´insane´. You would undoubtedly class me as fit for the looney bin. Nevertheless I am a responsible driver, usually respect speed limits and have been fined ónce in 20 years. That was not even for speeding but for drifting....

We can agree to disagree about instability. There is however no need to differ in opinion about the rear end of our Spyder as that is not a text book shape for eliminating turbulence. For you the turbulence is a non issue, for others it is unsettling enough to wánt the ducktail. Imo it is mostly a matter of semantics: ´Issue´ does not only mean problem but also subject. I agree there is no nééd to address the issue but stability cán be improved by means of aero and Í love my current set up.

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Posted : March 6, 2020 4:44 am
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

 Even with cross winds I don't see it helping. These are small light weight cars and like any light weight car they are subjected to high gust of winds and nothing is changing that compared to a 2 ton luxury car.  It doesn't matter how aerodynamic a car is, if it weighs less it will move.  

Duck tail or any other variant of wing that attaches to the body panels is not going to be as beneficial. This was discovered long ago with people that were trying to get an edge. 

 What is most likely the issue is limits on the suspension system particularly over inflation of tires and rebound damping.   This is why a researched set prevents lift of the car mechanically and why people think its aero when its not.  Lets say aero solves the problem but its the same as adding weight with downwards force when the actual source is the damper. All of that wing money could be spent on the real gold not fools gold. 

There are all kinds of bandaids like wider tires and wings when the elephant is suspension. After that is exhausted for race track speeds aero comes into the picture for the edge to win something but it needs to be mounted to the frame and the wing extra large otherwise its an ornament as most who race has discovered. 

 

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Posted : March 6, 2020 8:46 am
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member
Posted by: @dev

 but it needs to be mounted to the frame and the wing extra large otherwise its an ornament as most who race has discovered. 

 

I am among the few then. Raced for 23 years, all over Europe, incl. IoM and aero works. Even on karts on Mickey Mouse tracks. 

Anyway, happy to be in the outlier minority.

To the OP; it cost peanuts and you can go back. Even the rear wing; cost me sub 100 € and you cán work out a temporary fitment to the edges of the rear deck.

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Posted : March 6, 2020 10:43 am
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member
Posted by: @dev

 Even with cross winds I don't see it helping. These are small light weight cars and like any light weight car they are subjected to high gust of winds and nothing is changing that compared to a 2 ton luxury car.  It doesn't matter how aerodynamic a car is, if it weighs less it will move.  

It goes WAY beyond weight Dev. Weight is only one factor. At least as important is whether a car is FWD, RWD and where the centre of gravity vs centre point of wind pressure are located. Now, that latter can be shifted by aero thingamies. The minute mods to several production cars to improve stability in cross winds are textbook examples of the latter being véry effective. The Spyder being light with a mid engine makes it relatively susceptible to such changes. Adding a rear wind vane will shift the resultant of resulting air pressure momentum to the rear = shorter arm on the directional movement.

But, again, we simply differ in opinion. You think it is al suspension. I think that aero makes a difference. Yes with a suspension working as intended by Toyota the car will be more stable than with an iffy one. Yet aero will work exactly the same regardless as the shape of the car is the same.

 

p.s. coming back from taking the photos at the salinas took the long way and that includes a stretch of highway. About 80 km/h crosswind from the rhs, me going over twice that, past a large trailer, nó twitch worth that name. Worth it for me.

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Posted : March 6, 2020 11:01 am
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