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To wing, or not to wing... that is the question  

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dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

It is for sure that 99.9% of the Spyder road going public do not need a wing or additional aero of any sort except for looks. Without a wing it does not hold them back for the majority of tasks. Toyota has done an excellent job and these additions will only add additional weight up top which is counterintuitive and will never be realized on the street. The only thing holding you back on the street with a properly sorted Spyder is your nerve knowing you are too fast not the actual limits of the car which can be raised significantly without additional aero. 

First there needs to be a problem which a wing solves. Most of the road going Spyder public do not have a aero problem worth mentioning but if they do its most likely suspension or any of the ailments that is typical of an aged car that need to be rectified first to raise the bar. Aero should be the very last and avoided at all costs.  Should be considered an extreme solution when you run out of everything else. 

 

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Posted : March 6, 2020 11:52 am
Petrus
(@petrus)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @dev

 

First there needs to be a problem which a wing solves. Most of the road going Spyder public do not have a aero problem worth mentioning but if they do its most likely suspension or any of the ailments that is typical of an aged car that need to be rectified first to raise the bar. Aero should be the very last and avoided at all costs.  Should be considered an extreme solution when you run out of everything else. 

 

You have a different point of departure. Mý point of view is that since aero is quite effective* it can be useful for ány MR2 Spyder that is taken beyond city speed limits. Like make-up can be used to accentuate the natural beauty of a woman, to bring out the best. 

As a perspective I want to point to the under bumper front lip Toyota provided with the face lift model. Don´t know if it was standard fitment. It fits under the PFL just as neatly. Does not mean there was a próblem, though it being invisible to all but those kneeling to see it is a pointer to it being functional rather than for looks. Yes and imo it does make a difference in highway stability; making it  even better if that is a wording you can live with 😉 

* again: see the mongos and the OEM deflector behind the seats

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Posted : March 6, 2020 12:28 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator
Posted by: @petrus
Posted by: @dev

 

First there needs to be a problem which a wing solves. Most of the road going Spyder public do not have a aero problem worth mentioning but if they do its most likely suspension or any of the ailments that is typical of an aged car that need to be rectified first to raise the bar. Aero should be the very last and avoided at all costs.  Should be considered an extreme solution when you run out of everything else. 

 

You have a different point of departure. Mý point of view is that since aero is quite effective* it can be useful for ány MR2 Spyder that is taken beyond city speed limits. Like make-up can be used to accentuate the natural beauty of a woman, to bring out the best. 

* again: see the mongos and the OEM deflector behind the seats

 Buffeting in the interior is a completely different ball game but it does illustrate a point.

It is a universal problem and complaint  with the Spyder one of which were a solution was justified. It is also one of those modifications that was solved with a solution  in the first two years of the Spyder and one that was sold in great numbers. Nobody ever said they did not help or hurt, therefore it was a given that it helps. There were wings available before any of these interior mods to buffet air and in greater number.  Just about 90% of owners back then frowned at it for anything useful except for style even by those that actually had them. The most serious of racers that actually win trophies in national and regional events  would laugh at the approach in cruel manner.  

 It was only during a broad discussion with the most radical of Spyders on a high speed track that a BFW up high to grab clean air and connected to the fame gave the car the edge. Apart from this scenario and probably track specific, a wing for the street is primarily for looks.  

This might not apply to all cars as some might be designed poorly in this area that  require a wing for its benefit. Fortunately for us the car was designed in a wind tunnel by competent engineers where they are able to not use a wing. 

 That is the goal of most modern exotic sports car manufacture to eliminate wings. That is why a wing is the last resort to poor aerodynamic design but in the world of auto enthusiast culture it is celebrated like drilled and slotted rotors. 

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Posted : March 6, 2020 12:54 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator
Posted by: @petrus
Posted by: @dev

 

First there needs to be a problem which a wing solves. Most of the road going Spyder public do not have a aero problem worth mentioning but if they do its most likely suspension or any of the ailments that is typical of an aged car that need to be rectified first to raise the bar. Aero should be the very last and avoided at all costs.  Should be considered an extreme solution when you run out of everything else. 

 

You have a different point of departure. Mý point of view is that since aero is quite effective* it can be useful for ány MR2 Spyder that is taken beyond city speed limits. Like make-up can be used to accentuate the natural beauty of a woman, to bring out the best. 

As a perspective I want to point to the under bumper front lip Toyota provided with the face lift model. Don´t know if it was standard fitment. It fits under the PFL just as neatly. Does not mean there was a próblem, though it being invisible to all but those kneeling to see it is a pointer to it being functional rather than for looks. Yes and imo it does make a difference in highway stability; making it  even better if that is a wording you can live with 😉 

* again: see the mongos and the OEM deflector behind the seats

But thats the thing. My car doesn't have a wing yet it is highway stable even with cross winds. Im not the only one. There were those that had instability on the highway but that is mainly due to a veriety of things particularly shot dampers and air pressure.  This usually points to poor rebound damping from a bad suspension.  Maybe aero helps you, I don't know only you know but its quiet possible its a mask for other issues that have not been addressed that cause the instability at higher speeds which the wing is pushing down easily on weak suspension helping to assist rebound damping force and oscillations.   

 I have driven a verity of these cars some good and some really bad but what usually holds me back is bad suspension and air inflation. This can cause a lot of instability at higher speeds and floating that feels like the rear is lifting which it is because of poor rebound damping. Cheap coilover sets on the other hand can have too much rebound damping and that can cause less oscillations and a feeling of stability on smooth roads  but it can be the cause an early loss of traction because there is no give. I bet this also gives some the impression that a wing in their future as a traction device which it is not.   

 

 

 

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Posted : March 6, 2020 2:26 pm
pwnzor
(@pwnzor)
Estimable Member

I think I should mention that the issue I experienced on my road trip is with high sustained crosswinds in excess of 30 mph WHILE my car was travelling in excess of 80 mph, sometimes in excess of 100 mph for several miles at a time.  I never felt any kind of lift, just getting hit by strong winds on the driver side, and the car would just change lanes by itself unless I steered against it.

Did I say that 100 mph part out loud?  I've got an Escort Max360C with dual laser shifters, so I'm pretty comfortable about not running afoul of the local constabulary.

On the Westbound leg of my journey, I covered the first 1900 miles in just over 32 hours.  My son was in ICU in California, so I was in a bit of a hurry.

http://zero3nine.com/files/dospwn.gif

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Posted : March 6, 2020 3:58 pm
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haloruler64
(@haloruler64)
Honorable Member

Hope your son is doing ok. 

I find the MR2, in various states of suspension, to be easily blown around no matter the setup. If there are high winds, it gets pushed around more than other cars. Doubt a wing will help all that much frankly.

2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder, 2017 Lexus CT200h F Sport

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Posted : March 6, 2020 9:15 pm
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pwnzor
(@pwnzor)
Estimable Member

@haloruler64 That was pretty much what I thought.  I'll be leaving my car the way it is.

 

http://zero3nine.com/files/dospwn.gif

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Posted : March 6, 2020 11:30 pm
Petrus
(@petrus)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @pwnzor

I think I should mention that the issue I experienced on my road trip is with high sustained crosswinds in excess of 30 mph WHILE my car was travelling in excess of 80 mph, sometimes in excess of 100 mph for several miles at a time.  I never felt any kind of lift, just getting hit by strong winds on the driver side, and the car would just change lanes by itself unless I steered against it.

As I wrote I pass trucks at that speed and more with stronger crosswinds without being blown sideways. 

I am rather surprised about this thread. You post about the issue. I have the first hand experience to effective solve it on a seriously líghter, 900 kilo ready to go, Spyder. Other thínk not and you...

Oh, and you don´t féél lift. It is a term for the direction of the force; the car just weight a bit less than static on the scales. The bálance of lift = the balance of dynamic weight distribution and aero can shift that, just like it can shift the resultant rotation momentum of combined airforce or forward motion and cross wind. The forces from aero are quite significant. Use them at your advantage or not.

Ah well, tant pis. Hope your son is ok. 

 

 

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Posted : March 7, 2020 6:50 am
NottaMiata
(@nottamiata)
Honorable Member

Is it because the thing has tall, flat sides?  I have noticed this crosswind effect, especially in March (like, yesterday) more in this car than the '05 corolla I own.  I just chalked it up to having a larger surface area that is perpendicular to the wind.  The corolla is taller, but the side that faces the wind has more of a curve.  The spyder has like 700 square feet of slab side. 

Who wants to bet a box of doughnuts that if you had pill-shaped sides with a natural downward aero, this would be a non-issue? A flying-saucer shape would be "ideal" for negating cross-winds, but absurd.  Rounding out the side panels would make a huge difference, IM[uneducated]O.  Just angling them out at the bottom would go a long way; these stock side panels are pretty much plumb vertical.  Aside from being low, they do as much as they can to be sails.  I noticed it immediately, the first time I drove it in a stiff wind.

My opinion is that it's simply the big, slabby sides. Being low helps the car, because leverage (my gen1 xB is just awful... big, super- slabby, and tall), but the slab sides on the Spyder still hurt more than being that extra inch or two lower seems to help it.

I've also assumed that this same "flaw" is also a feature that adds aerodynamic lateral stability in the direction of travel.  One o them trade-off things. 

But yeah, those quick "pressure wave" pulsating winds will jostle you down the road thinking "but you're supposed to be 'low-profile' sporty! what's up with this shtt?".  Super-fun when combined with rain to make the Sideways rain.

🐸, 2003, Electric Green Mica, not enough mods

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Posted : March 7, 2020 9:01 am
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

   It was two years ago when we had 60mph or higher winds in my area one morning.  There was an emergency alert at the time. I was driving the two ton Lexus which is shaped like a brick.  Just about every small aero car and small SUVs were pulled over to the side of the road or stopped in the middle of the road. The wind did not effect me one bit except for hearing it.  I actually seen a Prius try to negotiate its self though the wind as it was being tossed around until they pulled over. I had no problem what so ever and I was diving well over the speed limit watching the spectacle of people giving up.  

 A light car no matter what you do cannot stand up to the forces of extreme cross winds. It does beg the question if we need to add anything to the car for such a situation or just slow down for that rare occasion like everyone else. I would just chalk it up it up to having performance tires that are not good when it rains in which case I slow down. Every car is a compromise. For a rare event like this its not worth making extreme modifications.   

 

 

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Posted : March 7, 2020 9:27 am
pwnzor liked
CSPIDY
(@cspidy)
Estimable Member

Rear wings just look very kool

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Posted : March 7, 2020 11:36 am
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator
Posted by: @nottamiata

Is it because the thing has tall, flat sides?  I have noticed this crosswind effect, especially in March (like, yesterday) more in this car than the '05 corolla I own.  I just chalked it up to having a larger surface area that is perpendicular to the wind.  The corolla is taller, but the side that faces the wind has more of a curve.  The spyder has like 700 square feet of slab side. 

 

 Its very simple.  Its the weight of the car has the most appreciable effect period during high winds.  It doesn't matter so much how the car is shaped weight makes the most difference.  Unfortunately simple is boring as we want a more romantic wondrous complex golf ball explanation.  

 

 

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Posted : March 7, 2020 1:23 pm
marsrock7
(@marsrock7)
Reputable Member

@dev

So the car needs dimples then? 

I suppose I'll try to remember to leave mine out during the next hailstorm.

 

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Posted : March 7, 2020 2:40 pm
dev liked
haloruler64
(@haloruler64)
Honorable Member

Yes I believe it's mostly curb weight, not aero. Spyder gets thrown around. Corolla is a bit more stable, but still bad (1996, 2600 lbs). My 3100 lb Lexus is pretty stable. The RX 350 is rock solid despite having a massive side profile. 

2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder, 2017 Lexus CT200h F Sport

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Posted : March 7, 2020 2:47 pm
dev liked
marsrock7
(@marsrock7)
Reputable Member

My TSX (3250 curb) is incredibly stable in crosswinds and while passing commercial vehicles. But maybe that's because it has the A-Spec lip kit and wing 😛

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Posted : March 7, 2020 2:55 pm
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