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Weird sound and brake pedal behavior

(@nottamiata)
Prominent Member

Hey all, hope you are plagueless.

I've noticed an odd behavior lately. There is a turn near my work that goes downhill a bit. I take this turn to the right, often at a decent clip so that I do not get rear-ended by the idiot behind me who invariably is not paying attention. Yes, I use my turn signal, but it has no effect on The Stupid...

So it is a hard turn (not for The Frog, for us it is a "fun" turn) that also goes downhill. I take it going at about 25 mph. Its a standard road entrance, tight, but easy for us.

Midway thru the turn, there is a weird grinding metallic sound from (I think) the front left wheel, which is to the outside of the turn. I can also feel it in the brake pedal, which is what concerns me enough to post. I do apply brakes thru the turn; we aren't suicidal.  But its not hard braking, because again, there's always some a**hole-with-dumbphone riding right on my tail.

I suspect it is a garden-variety fender rub. I am on 16" wheels in front, 205/45. Same issue with the 195/50/16 winter sadness wheels currently on there.

I dont hear it so much as feel it. But there is a sound. And it is brief. Starts in mid-turn, lasts about 1/2 second, and is gone before I let off the brakes or finish the turn, but after the g-force is starting to subside. My rub theory has some lateral tire-deformation dynamic in it, but I dont want to go too far out on a limb with stuff like this.

I dont have any 15" wheels to test, to eliminate rubbing the fender theories, and that's my first guess, but has anyone else felt the rub through the brake pedal? And I could swear the pedal gets a bit softer in that brief moment too. Like if someone quickly opened the bleeder just for a tiny moment. Its subtle, but noticeable.

Thanks in advance for advice/anecdotes.

🐸, 2003, Electric Green Mica

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Topic starter Posted : November 20, 2020 3:18 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member.

The first thing to check is to remove the wheel for inspection.  Thats all you can do, brain storming is just that not very helpful until it is dealt with. I would remove the caliper and inspect both pads for any cracks or misalignments. 

 I had something similar and it was a TRD front pad that cracked which caused it to misalign on the slider and it made the pedal feel weird.  Those pads sucked but thats it a different topic.  

 

 

 

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Posted : November 20, 2020 3:29 pm
(@nottamiata)
Prominent Member

@dev,

Thanks. The odd thing is that it only occurs at that one turn and when I am in bat-outta-hell-lite mode. I think there is quite a bit of force happening there since it is a fast turn, going down a hill, and really seems to be coming from the front, outboard wheel. Doesn't mean I am just assuming it is fender rub (although i can imagine that a lot of tire is being pushed up under the car at that moment, maybe enough to make it rub when it usually does not). I do know that it runs awfully close to rubbing all the time. Its like the car was designed for smaller wheels or something...

I am not arguing, of course. Same increased forces could be irritating a failing brake component. Gonna try to find some chalk, although I don't want to go to ANY stores nowadays.

I am overdue for new pads and rotors, starting to feel some warp in the rotors. Already own all the parts, just can't muster the motivation or the courage to do a brake job with no experience and no supervision. Looks easy *on paper*, but...

🐸, 2003, Electric Green Mica

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Topic starter Posted : November 20, 2020 3:56 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member.

If you are overdue for pads and rotors I would just get that done now and have the mechanic inspect the brakes.  

 I wouldn't do  brake work if you have never done it before especially if you don't having someone experienced watching your work.  Its not that bad but I would never do something I learned on the internet unless I was mechanically inclined and you just need a youtube video to give you a synopsis of what is involved. I have seen people mess up all kinds of stuff with watching Youtube videos and end up striping bolts or trusting that the youtube presenter knows what they are doing as there is plenty of idiots showing other idiots how to mess up their car with the comments calling them idiots written by idiots.  

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Posted : November 20, 2020 4:28 pm
(@nottamiata)
Prominent Member

@dev,

Yeah, thats about what I was thinking. Bums me out a bit, tho, since I miss an opportunity to learn the procedure, not to mention the dent to my wallet (which I am fully aware could be much worse if I make a different decision).

On paying closer atrention to it today, I am pretty sure it is not rubbing. I just don't think I have the wheel turned far enough in that turn to get a rub.  It is two distinct, quick vibrations in the brake pedal, with a grindy sort of undertone to them.

Would like to know why this only happens at that one spot, even considering there might be a part failure. I make mildly spirited right turns elsewhere and it does not happen anywhere else. Seems like the downslope is the only difference.

 

🐸, 2003, Electric Green Mica

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Topic starter Posted : November 23, 2020 2:16 pm
ISpy
 ISpy
(@ispy)
Estimable Member

I believe that brake jobs are super simple - at least on the fronts.  Because of the brake cable in the rear and how difficult it is with putting pads in with so limited space, that job can be easily frustrating.  If you have decent mechanical skills, replacing the rotors, pads, cleaning the new rotors, cleaning the carrier; compressing and cleaning the caliper; cleaning and greasing the slides - is 15 minutes a side tops.  Understanding the parts, how they operate, how to inspect, clean and grease are all things you can pick up reading and watching videos.  The trial and error is less that a mistake will result in a near death experience.  The issue is if you can't put it back together and are stuck in your driveway unable to complete the job. The parts go together one way and that is pretty easy to tell since the old ones show tell-tale signs of seating. I believe that if you understand the parts and process, then take it on. Bleeding the brakes, is also very simple, but more of a risk with screwing it up.  So I would not take that on without supervision (and you need a helper or a bleeder).  I bear no responsibility for your decisions. 

Get: stiff steel bristle brush; make sure you have brake grease for the slides (included in most pad kits); a large pair of pump pliers or brake compression kit; a can of brake clean; a rag; and, small aluminum bake pan (to catch the brake clean).

If you could put in your will that I have first dibs at the wrecked frog, much appreciated.

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Posted : November 26, 2020 1:48 pm
(@nottamiata)
Prominent Member

@ispy,

These are the kinds of replies that continue to encourage me, and I appreciate it. I think that if I knew everything i needed up front (you left out the anti-squeal shims, BTW 😛), then I can tackle most jobs that don't involve lifting the head off the engine or cracking open the transmission housing. Having support from a great community is also a huge benefit that I have appreciated immensely from all of you here.

And yeah, you nailed it with the concern over an inability to get it reassembled ("huh, what is this part for? I must have removed it, but forgot to put it back? Where does it go, though...?). I could bungle one or two and figure it out pretty quickly on a test drive, I think. Not testing at 65 mph at first, because DUH, and would likely just do the fronts, test, then tackle the rears. If I had the time, i could just disassemble it and put all the old stuff back together to level up my skills. If I ruin a rotor, its already trash anyway.

I do have a budhet wind-back tool, a jury-rigged bleeder bottle. I know how to bleed the brakes but I wasn't as careful as I shoulda been the first time. I seem to have dodged the bullet though, and have thanked the car gods already. I do not have the aforementioned brake kit/silence shims yet. Still debating whether to just re-use the old ones. Any advice on that idea is appreciated.

The weather is turning to crap now, so I still might just inspect the pads and try to stall if I can for a few more months. I dont drive much these days, but i do run it on the interstate. I know thats a suboptimal plan, but if I see paper-thin/scary pads, I will just help out my mechanic with some payola. I am trying to limp along a bit while my finances recover from a recent periid of rona-unemployment. My top is at EOL too. Patch-and-delay thread on that topic coming soon... coincidentally involving a wrecked Electric Green Mica ("oh, the humanity!!!") spotted at a local scrapyard.

Edit: my bad, you DID mention the brake kit. Here is one rotten tomato, take your best shot, LOL.

🐸, 2003, Electric Green Mica

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Topic starter Posted : November 30, 2020 11:19 am
(@forminfunction)
Eminent Member

Curious if you ever sorted out your noise during cornering. It doesn't seem to me that those tire sizes should rub (I ran similar sizes on 16" wheels with my first Spyder for a bit), unless you have a damaged fender liner or significantly lowered or blown suspension. It sounds almost like a warped rotor based on the "grinding in 2 spots" part of the description, hard to tell from the other side of the keyboard of course.

 

Brakes are a job that are intimidating until you've done it once...especially if you're doing all 4 corners. For better or worse rotors are basically 2 more bolts than just changing the pads so not much to those. My few tips would be

-Do 1 side at a time so you have a point of reference (also if you remove both calipers as you push/wind one caliper piston back the pressure will push the next caliper piston out again)

-Take a picture before you take something apart (for brakes this really only applies to the little metal clips & the parking brake cable)

-If/when you decide to try this, make sure you have a breaker bar, & a wind back tool for the rears (a quality piece can be borrowed for free from autozone)

-Use an old metal clothes hangar or similar to hang the caliper from the springs while you change the rotors. This mitigates stress on the brake line.

-If reusing old shims, wire brush them as best you can, wipe em down, then grease the side that contacts the pads

-Grease/antiseize the slide pins & any area with metal on metal contact such as back & sides of the brake pads (if you're using metallic brake pads for any reason don't take this to heart & grease the face of the pads 🙃)

-A small amount of the same grease/antiseize can be used on the hub (both on the face as well as behind the rotor) to make your life easier the next time, should you keep the car long enough to do this again. A little grease on the hub also ensures the wheel will be easy to remove if you ever get a flat - don't get it on the studs/lug nuts. 

-If you bleed/flush fluid the correct order is  RR --> LR --> RF --> LF. Do this before putting the wheels back on to make life easier. Top off fluid to full mark after dropping the car back on flat ground & pumping the brake pedal several times.

-Speaking of brake pedal, it is IMPORTANT to PUMP THE BRAKE PEDAL multiple times before putting the car in gear. If the pedal does not regain a firm feel, DO NOT drive.

-Bedding brakes is optional, I personally prefer to do so.

 

If you decide to go for it I wish you the best of luck, hopefully that's all your noise was as well & nothing more

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Posted : December 19, 2020 2:44 am
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