over steer rant

I just found this. I laughed out loud for a good 5 minutes.

All of the best drivers have wrecked a car pushing the envelope. Sometimes the only way to find it.

When non car people make the comment that a particular  road car is too much to handle that they need  instruction I tell them nonsense.  Just drive it like a normal car. 

The problem here is that these same people do not drive normal  and are generally reckless with a lead foot.  For that reason a car with more power just makes things worse like a 400hp Spyder which is stupid. 

In order to be a fast driver you first need to master being a slow driver which can be very difficult for most as you can often tell by the number of dings on peoples car.  I’m not saying not to have fun on some country roads but some want it much sooner than others which is the quickest way to wrecking any car.  Driving at speed on actual roads  takes years and if you don’t have years take it to a track and wipe out.  

I will admit I was a bit concerned about the whole ‘snap oversteer’ thing when I read about it regarding the MR2- I’m currently running a square setup (195’s all around on the factory wheels for an 04 car), and I’ve never been surprised when driving. If I’m driving in the rain, I’m a little more careful on on-ramps as such and if in a turn, I carefully lift off the gas instead of just quickly getting off and if on the gas in an on ramp/ circle, I just keep the gas at a steady press. No abrupt maneuvers and so far, I’ve been fine. Simply, don’t push the envelope on a public road (track is fine to learn the limits and spin out). I generally don’t drive like an old lady, nor do I hoon the car.

I’ve had a few minor slides in the 300ZX in the rain and with that, it’s like driving it into a little drift, easily correct, and be on my way (happened 2-3x in my owning the car in almost 10 years). Simply don’t panic, and be fine

u-turns  and tight 90 degrees are where i have my fun with the traction limits. but only a hair. and only by throttle-up-induced traction loss on exit, never through braking.

a mid engine car isn't as easy as a FF, but it's not so much more difficult that you'd be in a ditch every month, if you just drive reasonably. no sudden maneuvers, smooth on throttle and on brake, and give yourself plenty of margin.

corner marked 30mph with theoretical max speed 60mph? try 35-45 to feel a little bit of the thrill without pushing it anywhere near its limits.

i have tailed-out in an FF many more times than in my mr2 because its just so much more forgiving. i don't fear tail-out nearly as much. once slid up a highway on-ramp in my tiburon at 50-40 mph. but i wouldn't dare try in an mr2.

Posted by: @mrsponz

On a rant here: 

Their once was a saying, and I don't remember the exact quote "If you can drive a Porsche 911 fast, you can drive any thing fast". I always wondered about that until my friend wrecked his Porsche 912. He could not drive his 912 fast.

A while back, a friend of my gave the keys of his 91 MR2 Turbo to his son. He did this after several weeks of training behind the wheel, both on how to drift and to correct over steer. Yep, he crashed it the first month. I remember his boy claiming: "I know how to drift, what can the MR2 show me" !!

At what point do we admit (to ourselves)  that mid and rear engined cars are not normal? You can't go from a Chevy Nova, or Ford Falcon to a Corvair Monza and expect a normal driving experience. I would think that those  same people who wrecked their early Corvairs would also have crashed their 911's, Beetles and Karmann Ghias. Porsche people did not purchase Corvairs so I no numbers to prove my point. 

Maybe the Toyota MR2's should have come with a coupon (voucher) for high-performance driving training at the local track.  I am definitely going to spend some time at my local Porsche Driving Experience Center.

@mrsponz, did you wreck yours?

I am a total novice still, but a year ago the oversteer thing terrified me. Now, it is the appeal. My car is work to drive, but I love it dearly. And often. If I really want to just squish down the road, I drive the xB; it has a great command view, excellent visibility, makes no promises on how fast it will get you there...

Yes, this car is different. That's the point.

Since I went square 205R16, my steering is really sensitive compared to mainstream. Its way more sensitive than my old GTI ever was.

I just got another alignment, at the lowest end of the OEM spec on camber (most neg, but still barely in spec), dead on oem spec for the rest, toe, thrust and so on. I have been feeling guilty about taking so long to get it aligned after I did the struts. But I ended up eyeballing a nearly-spec alignment. IIRC, I just missed one of the rears, camber or toe. Still, that was pretty good. I expected laughter from the alignment guy.

But it didn't make any difference from earlier this summer after going square, it is still the front's wider tires that really needs to be respected. The fresh struts recently just made it worse/better. It drives straight as an arrow, smooth as butter. You just have to mind it.

Small twitches are enough to move the car plenty. You simply don't drive these "like normal", at least not mine, and The Frog is probably a joke next to most of the rest of youseses, with your fancy suspensions and all manner of goodies.

I would not give one of these to a kid, certainly not with wide fronts, and stock is still not a toy. I say wide, but 205 isn't extreme by any stretch, but the difference from 185 is striking. 20mm is the width of my thumb.

I would be interested in how a Phattsmobile feels.

There are many with the so called fancy suspension that made there car worse with cheap stiff Chinese crap, all the collectible bracing , widest miss matched tires, wrong sway bar settings and over inflated tires that show up to meets like bozo the clown.   
Most will never experience an issue with bad suspension and tires and will believe all that crap that gives them a stiff ride equals better handling until they unsettle the car during an accident avoidance situation.  
You made the right decision with replacement struts.  

Oh yes, the struts have been pure joy. I might like stiffer struts on a track, but I can't imagine that being pleasant on the roads here. The highways suck too. Lumpy from day 1.

The Frog is plenty stiff for his routine with the pseudo-oem replacement KYB struts, and softened a bit by the winter tires (toyo observe 6) but I do miss my S.drives. These winter tires are easy to get the back out without even driving like a jackass. Just throttle early in an unfavorable spot and the back slides a foot or so. Nothing stupid. Not possible with s.drives unless jackass.

But in theory, if I hit that turn at the same speed in the Corolla... LOL. Understeer is worse, i would say. Oversteer maybe just inspires too much confidence in some folks?

Posted by: @nottamiata

Oh yes, the struts have been pure joy. I might like stiffer struts on a track, but I can't imagine that being pleasant on the roads here. The highways suck too. Lumpy from day 1.

The Frog is plenty stiff for his routine with the pseudo-oem replacement KYB struts, and softened a bit by the winter tires (toyo observe 6) but I do miss my S.drives. These winter tires are easy to get the back out without even driving like a jackass. Just throttle early in an unfavorable spot and the back slides a foot or so. Nothing stupid. Not possible with s.drives unless jackass.

But in theory, if I hit that turn at the same speed in the Corolla... LOL. Understeer is worse, i would say. Oversteer maybe just inspires too much confidence in some folks?

A softer suspension makes a better handling car especially for the street and that is where most people fail with poor choices.  The reason why you need to bump up the stiffness  is primarily so you don't run out of suspension travel once your turn in limits are reached.  However  there are exceptions if the damping is exceptional to work with higher spring rates to soak up the road, and you only get that when you spent $2k in dampers.  These dampers will be researched for the car as a whole and for a street application, they will be comfortable also.  These dampers also do really well for track events where they often win.  

 The Spyder can be a handful in bad weather but in the dry there should be no excuse for spinning  if the condition of the car is sound with a fresh set of dampers and the right set of tires.  I can toss a stock Spyder around all day without it behaving badly and with my car it is next to impossible.  I have driven a few examples of older Spyders  and modified Spyders that are down right scary where the owner thinks there is nothing wrong and that is because he doesn't have a bases of comparison but will find out soon enough when he needs the suspension the most. 

Maybe I do drive like an old lady...I’m on OEM suspension, 195 tires (BFG G Force) and have the car braced with a Phat’s brace and front and rear shock tower braces and it seems to handle and ride very well. I’m older, so with the way I drive, I don’t have to nor want to hang the rear out each time in a turn.

It has nothing to do with being a safe driver or overly cautious. If you are losing  traction especially early enough that you oversteer you are doing something  wrong or your car is crap.  The Spyder even in stock form can handle high speed corners just fine on stock everything. I have to admit that I will occasionally try  to kick out the rear end around a tight almost 90 degree slow turn just to know there is a limit for fun in a controlled manner but its very hard to do especially with the tires I have that have too much grip.   

I did see a member that came to a meet and he was drifting the car around corners which was down right dangerous. It was easy for him to get the car loose because the suspension was too tight.  Everyone was a bit upset by this and the fact that he would follow too close to other people. 

a "loose" setup in drifting is hard suspension.
a "tight" setup in driftin is soft suspension.

funny how that works eh?

I was in need of limiting body roll on my car to let me corner faster without rubbing on the fenders. so stiffer I go.  but i don't like being  too stiff because as you said, soft = traction

Posted by: @refirendum

a "loose" setup in drifting is hard suspension.
a "tight" setup in driftin is soft suspension.

funny how that works eh?

I was in need of limiting body roll on my car to let me corner faster without rubbing on the fenders. so stiffer I go.  but i don't like being  too stiff because as you said, soft = traction

 It's striking a balance and the most important factor is matching the tires to the suspension as that will determine how tight or loose.   I think your best course of action if you need to go stiff  is to have a tire that is extreme performance so it doesn't slip as you come closer to the edge of traction early as the demands will be higher.   This all goes to crap when it starts raining because the car is now more prone to lose traction compared to a softer set up and this is why many have wrecked their cars because they are use to the better handling in the dry and it becomes the polar opposite when conditions are not that great.This is why I slow the F down soon as it starts to rain because it can give me a false sense of confidence where there is no forgiveness.  

 What I often  see are those that get caught up with wanting a cheap coilover sets but then get all seasons to save money which is a disaster waiting to happen. 

    It goes without saying that when you make your car more like a track car for the street you also inherit severe downsides that makes it less street friendly.   

Hmm.

I´ve been racing anything with wheels since mid seveties and am of the school tah any car is a race car if you have the balls to race it.

The crux being that you can flog anything within milimeters of it´s limits as long as yoú drive it within/onto those limits.

Just watched today´s report on the Dakar and my son observed to his mom that we did wáy more scary fast stuff  offroad in the Almerian and Aragón deserts with the DAF 55 and Volvo 340 because those modern cars are so much more capable. The crux is driving to the max of what you are driving. 

Back to the Spyder and settings: The Spyder is what it is and that is a very, véry  well sorted car in OEM trim. For road use. You can rallye it, race it, touge it, anything it within it´s limits. Crossing those is YOUR limitation.

The rest is pretty trick and almost art. It is basically impossible to improve on Toyota´s compromise set up. Any gain in any area will have a larger trade off in another area. 

Performance on wet vs dry is  like public road vs track. You need a way softer set up on wet track, like you do on public road vs track. Same thing balance front vs rear; i.e understeer vs. oversteer. On dry and track, you can handle oversteer múch easier than underteer, wánt oversteer. Not so the trickier conditions. There is no one set up suits all and the OEM one is The Best Compromise by several million dollars of development.

Next we get to the skill set and prefernces of the individual driver. Me, personally, old school; líke a car set up as soft and compliant as possible while still possible to keep it going into the direction I want it to go.  In the case of our Spyder I try stick as close to OEM as possible and simply drive around/within the limits.

Bottom line is: Do not follow internet stuff as golden rules. Read motoring journalist´s proza as anecdotal only.  

One thing; buy the best rubber you can afford.