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Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member

Two interesting ´ceterus paribus´ comparisons.

First 1ZZ vs 2ZZ propelled on track.
Then open diff vs lsd on track.
Goes on my shortlist with the ditto no wing vs big wing track comparison.

The wing

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Topic starter Posted : May 15, 2020 3:46 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

I knew the 2zz would make a difference but I never thought it would make that much of a difference.  That extra 40-50hp up top with its long legs and lacking torque does well at the track as a serious upgrade.  Not a tremendous difference with the LSD comparison but its what wins races. For the street I don't see the advantage as I have plenty of traction not to make the tires slip as these engines don't have a lot of torque to begin with but if I went forced induction it would be on the table. I would rather have a great set of tires. As far as the wings go the bigger the better and they can certainly help win a race but on the street I wouldn't consider it unless there is a problem and then I would first investigate  the reason before aero. Most of my turns are below 70mph and I don't seem to have any loss of grip but I can see this working at higher speeds to where it can be beneficial if you need to win a trophy. 

 

 

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Posted : May 15, 2020 4:18 pm
Refirendum
(@refirendum)
Trusted Member

idk if the last video about aero is the best one to explain the functionality and advantage.

i'd go with videos from Kyle.Drives/Kyle.Engineers (same guy who works with aero department with racing teams) and GreysGarage (specifically flow visualization videos)

these two have videos that mainly have aero content but also have non-aero stuff. watching all the content is very satisfying if you like to absorb technical stuff.

  • ackermann angle
  • multi-element wings
  • vortices and vortex generators
  • flow separation and separation bubbles
  • diffusers
  • diffuser strakes
  • aero balance
  • carbon vs kevlar vs fiberglass
  • wrapping fiberglass in carbon fiber and why it doesn't improve the strength of the part
  • splitters
  • canards
  • rear wing placement
  • aero balance
  • ground effect
  • 3d profile (twisted) wings
  • swan neck wings
  • wings on FWD
  • gurney flaps
  • scrub radius
  • caster
  • kingpin inclination
  • wing endplates
  • scoops and vents
  • dirty air and clean air
  • WRC wings
  • slipstreaming
  • unsprung vs sprung aero
  • LMP1 shark fins
  • F1 t-wings

 

03 spyder

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Posted : May 15, 2020 4:46 pm
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member

The 2ZZ difference did not surprise me really. The lsd though I had not expected to make so much difference on a race track

The video indeed illustrates that track conditions are the natural habitad of the 2ZZ.  In my real world of mountain road, the 2zz would be véry difficult to keep on the boil whereas the 1ZZ is more flexible.

In my world the lsd is a boon from first gear hairpins and a world of difference in 2nd - 3rd - 2nd - 3rd etc. switchbacks. Especially in a mid engine car as it takes a serious chunk of snap out of the snap oversteer. The more worn the tarmac the better 😆 

Concerning the wing; it does not make the car faster really, certainly not in my world. It does however make the rear more stable, ´planted´, again rather nice on a mid engine car.

 

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Topic starter Posted : May 15, 2020 5:14 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator
Posted by: @petrus

 

The video indeed illustrates that track conditions are the natural habitad of the 2ZZ.  In my real world of mountain road, the 2zz would be véry difficult to keep on the boil whereas the 1ZZ is more flexible.

 

 

You would need to actually drive a 2ZZ to compare. Even on a mountain road it makes all the difference and you can keep it in its power band without any issue because it has longer legs , shorter gearing and it has an advantage of not having to change gears as you can use the full breadth of the rpm rang even on hills. I image if you get a light flywheel it would make it worse. The only place where it might not have an advantage is at an autoX with very tight turns and no straights. It’s a lot harder to drive this way but there is an advantage.  
It would be interesting if the video comparison shows us any difference in the entry, mid and exit corner speed between the two to see if it’s  a wash or there is a power advantage of making time around a corner.   

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Posted : May 15, 2020 6:28 pm
dev
 dev
(@dev)
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I found this. Sounds great doing it. Way louder than my car. 

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Posted : May 15, 2020 8:02 pm
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member
Posted by: @dev

I found this. Sounds great doing it. Way louder than my car. 

Could be here. The provincial road from Vva. de Gauche to Colmenar to Málaga is just like that. Most other are a bit less wide and with shorter straight(ish) bits. The region around Colmenar is used for a mountain ralley btw. Should be on youtube. Think it´s the Rally de Monte de Málaga. There is some great footage of the Gazoo ralley Yaris testing over here. Literally over here. On the hard pack caminos and tramac back roads within ear shot.

The last say 10 kms of the climb from the coast to La Boquete de Zafarraya is all 2nd - 3rd gear with the odd 1st. Would be héll with the 2ZZ.

Oh and mine is as loud 😎 

Next week will fínally be out! The confinement has been slightly releaxed. Will be going to Málaga to one, maybe both Magala gf.  Will probably take the string of local roads from Antequera to Concepcion to Almogía. 

The Yaris up here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wrc+yaris+malaga

In 2017 I was traning with my son up in the Granada mountains when we ran into the Toyota team. They wanted us off the route as their thing was supposed to be secret. Tant pis because we had the exact same official permission of the forrestry department.  They* were not pleased that they had to wait for a vintage (belt drive lsd rocks!!) DAF 55 maraton to have cleared the track. I was very much ok to wait for thém to go first as they would probably not hold me up I said. They did not want to risk us filming.

* read the team management;the mechanics were all but roling on the floor laughing...

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Topic starter Posted : May 16, 2020 4:44 am
dev liked
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member
Posted by: @dev

You would need to actually drive a 2ZZ to compare. Even on a mountain road it makes all the difference and you can keep it in its power band without any issue because it has longer legs , shorter gearing and it has an advantage of not having to change gears as you can use the full breadth of the rpm rang even on hills.

The back roads are 8 - 10% inclines easy with 1st gear hair pins. A 2ZZ will needs WÁY lower gearing to be/stay on the boil. I have no doubt that with lsd it wíll be wuicker. No discussing that. You´d have to flóg it though; like you stole it. Great fun but ... the more flexible 1ZZ is só much easier and with the smt I never miss a gear. No risk to over rev on the downshift either; it will simply refuse and wait some.

Mind; I am NOT ´because race car´  but ´any car is a race car if you have the balls to race it´  and the relaxed touring with the charming company is more important than the fastest ride over the local touge roads. Hence the A/C stays in... The lsd too is more a safety thing than a speed thing; I like to push the car and the lsd is a lot easier to slide on purpose and ditto to catch if not on purpose. Impresses the girls no end btw as théy think it´s difficult 😎 

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Topic starter Posted : May 16, 2020 5:05 am
dev liked
nocoolname
(@nocoolname)
Estimable Member

A 2zz and 1zz have similar HP and torque curves until lift comes on with the 2zz, so saying that you need way lower gearing doesn't really equate.  We have the dragon here in the eastern U.S.  It has elevation changes and tight curves that sound very close to what you have.  I've had countless runs with a 1zz spyder there and just as many if not more with a 2zz spyder.   Even in the mountains with very tight curves, a 2zz will outshine a 1zz.

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Posted : May 19, 2020 6:05 pm
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member

The 2ZZ has a second curve sitting on top of the 1ZZ rev range thús using the same gearing means you will have a longer gearing. Think about that. You´ll figure it out.

Enjoy ´the dragon´!  I will be going to the coast this evening via a detour over secondary mountian roads. Even though it is going dówn, there are two inclines where when I do it on my road bike,  the 34/32 gearing does not cut it 😎 

The curvy bit is about 60 kms and there are hardly any parts where you can go over 80 km/h.  Weight and traction are the crux, neither hp nor speed. Só looking forward to it.

The way up again, I will go a different route. The two most convenient ones are both stunning. One has two ´curva de corbata´ hooking up. There is about 2500 hight meters in it. The other is 30 km longer and goes over two passes, almost 3500 hight meters. The latter is sadly still out of bounds of the confinement rules. The former I have done lots of times though so will go one a bit more westwards. The choice is sheer endless. 

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Topic starter Posted : May 20, 2020 4:24 am
neomr2
(@neomr2)
Reputable Member
Posted by: @petrus

...The 2ZZ has a second curve sitting on top of the 1ZZ rev range thús using the same gearing means you will have a longer gearing. Think about that. You´ll figure it out. 

I am not sure what you are saying. 

If the 1ZZ and 2ZZ curves overlap with the 2ZZ continuing to pull at higher RPM's, then it performs better, period.

Power or HP is an engineering metric the defines the rate of doing work, but it is not directly measurable and is determined by other direct measures.

Power = Torque x Angular Velocity or Power = Force x Linear Velocity.

Using the first equation and your gearing explanation, the 2ZZ is superior.

Maybe, I misread your comments and if so, belay my last.

Mono Craft GT-300 with a few upgrades...

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Posted : May 20, 2020 8:17 am
nocoolname
(@nocoolname)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @petrus

The 2ZZ has a second curve sitting on top of the 1ZZ rev range thús using the same gearing means you will have a longer gearing. Think about that. You´ll figure it out.

Not sure what you're saying. The 2zz revs higher, meaning you have more time in each gear, the engine doesn't change the gear ratios.  Here's a pic of a 1zz dyno laid over a 2zz dyno, both were bolt on cars, but on stock ECU.  (Pic pulled from this thread). 

Lets pick the 5-6000 RPM range as after that you're in lift with the 2zz and power output is not comparable anymore.  at that range the 2zz is making ~10 more whp and ft lbs of torque.  Even if you're not using the whole rev range, you're still putting more power to the ground at the same RPM and gear with the 2zz.

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Posted : May 20, 2020 9:47 am
marsrock7 and dev liked
dblotii
(@dblotii)
Estimable Member

And remember that the equation of motion of a vehicle is: Acceleration is proportional to [power at the wheels] / [(vehicle speed) x (vehicle mass)]

Dave

 

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Posted : May 20, 2020 10:34 am
dev
 dev
(@dev)
Just a member. Moderator

@nocoolname

That is impressive. It coincides with many that that were only getting 160whp with the 2ZZ with  the wrong exhaust strategy and then complaining about it. For years I had my disappointment with the 2zz down low. Soon as I exchanged the downpipe the first time with the JNZ it was crazy faster but I had to remove it because it was too loud with an old Team Moon that was on its way out. I went back but this time to the Che downpipe and again I noticed just how much faster it is down low compared to a 1ZZ and up top it pulls hard. The 2ZZ has a good amount of power potential just by sorting out the exhaust is never emphasized as much for the majority of the budget swappers.  

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Posted : May 20, 2020 10:34 am
Petrus
(@petrus)
Reputable Member

a = F / m

Thank you for the equasion. You can see that the reduction of mass has the same effect on a.  It also applies when braking and cornering. Adding engine power not.

 

F at the wheel is what the engine produces x reduction.

The 2ZZ stacks 2k revs on top of the 1ZZ rev range. Say 30%. For ease of explanation say the power gains is 30% too. The air resistance increases as a function of the square of speed. Thus,  unless you put in a shorter diff reduction than the 1ZZs, you are overgeared. Thus leaving F on the table in the lower gears too. As I wrote earlier; simples.

 

@Dev most owners do not get near Celica number with the MR2 install. Indeed an issue with the too compact exhaust install. The 1ZZ likewise. Because the 2ZZ pumps out more it suffers more; it needs a relatively better exhaust system. And more reduction of the higher revs 😉

 

Concerning the other comparison found a neat one by Quaife who did a shoot out with theo Cup Seats; oen with one without their helical lsd. I am a bit miffed as to why the lsd is not much of a subject in the MR2 community. It is in MX territory, so ????

 

Came back up from Málaga this evening. Took the C-road; a tarmac ´mountain camino´. All 30 km/h speed limit, lost of 1st and 2nd gear haipins and switchbacks. An lsd party 🙂 and noooooo need for more hp.

 

p.s the new inlet funnel is LOUD. Improves input appearantly as the output sure is.

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Topic starter Posted : May 20, 2020 5:38 pm
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